Confession

[tarotgal]

Confession-
When going into the bookstore on campus, I always go to the textbook section to the shelves where the books for English are. And I stand in awe of all the fantastic books- some of which I've read, some of which I haven't. I am always fascinated to see what books professors make their students read for classes.

English classes were always my favorite. I LOVED being forced to read great books. It was like heaven. "Here, read this wonderful book closely, then we'll talk about it for a few weeks in class" Why WOULDN'T I like that?! LOL! I was always one of those people who procrastinated in reading, but it was COMPLETELY against my morals to by cliff's notes or whatever those other ones were. No way. Some author spent time picking these words and were I in his/her place, I would want my books enjoyed for what I wrote, not for some summary of it, no matter how accurate the summary is. Seeing all my friends and my stupid sister use them just sickens me to no end. People laughed at me for doing things the hard way, but I don't care. Even with some of the books I didn't enjoy as much (like All the King's Men which I own and have tried to read 4 times now but have never been able to make it straight through from start to finish) I still felt like the point of reading the books was to LEARN from the books. And for that I needed to read the actual books. It's probably the writer in me.

But it's almost orgasmic to run my eyes over the rows and rows of books. Seeing the ones I've enjoyed, knowing that somewhere on campus were people being forced to read such great works of literature for the first time. Forced to understand and learn. And maybe someone out there would fall in love with one of the books the way I had. It's different from going to a library. It's so great to see 50 copies of 1984 and know that soon they'll all be snatched up. Or see what interesting choices professors have picked for specialized classes like Literature and the Environment or Irish Lit. It's really thrilling. So many books, waiting for owners, waiting to be enjoyed. *sigh* I wish I were back in an English class. My minor didn't take me far enough :-) Man I miss those days :-)

Usually if I stay in the section too long, someone will come up and ask me if I need help finding anything. I try to leave before that happens... off to the computer science section where imagination comes through new uses of logic and form. Computer code is certainly an art of its own. But nothing compares to a fantastic book you read for the first time then spend weeks discussing enthusiastically with others. And it's always enthusiastic to me... even when the rest of the class grumbles and pulls out their cliff's notes.

Comments

[tarotgal]

To say Lord of the Flies is about Canibalism is like saying The Cat in the Hat is about a fish. :-) There's so much I adore about that book. I could read it over and over again and still think of things to analyze and think about.
I know a lot of people who had to read one or all of Tolkien's books for college English class. The Hobbit was a very popularly assigned book in our lowest level English class. Though I placed out of all my required English classes so never experienced that myself. I remember a friend reading The Hobbit before another class we were in started and saying they were spending a month reading it slowly and discussing as they went along. I was tres jealous :-)

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

Sorry I don't agree with you guys. I didn't mind reading, but I hated having to discuss these types of books in English class in high school...I had a professor who basically told us 'this type of image means this' and we were allowed to try and interpret hidden meanings and symbolism and imagery, but only his answers were the right ones. We did that with poetry too, had to read a poem and then present our analysis of it's meaning, but our grades were based on how well he liked our analysis. I did a difficult poem and got a B- and another student did a really short and blaringly obvious poem and told him what he wanted to hear and got an A. It was a wake-up call in learning how to get the grade you wanted by playing to the teacher...and I really can't stand poetry to this day.

But that's beside the point. My point was, I always felt like I was sucking the life out of the story by picking it to death, turning it inside out and looking for every shred of symbolism there is. Sometimes even a great work of literature is just a story and should be just enjoyed. Case in point: LOTR. Tolkien himself hates allegory and has said there's no hidden meaning whatsoever to LOTR.

I do agree with you about the Cliff notes thing though...people who don't do the reading don't deserve to pass a class. And the LOTR Cliff notes are just awful!! They skip just about every part I loved, and mention Legolas and Gimli maybe twice for the whole trilogy.

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

I would just like to add that I might change my mind were I ever given the chance to discuss these works freely with a group of other students who love reading. Forced critique for a grade is not conducive to good discussion, and our focus in high school wasn't really to discuss the story so much as play 'hunt out the symbolism' so we spent so much time analyzing 'light vs. dark' , the importance of the number 3, 4, 9, etc. that we never really got to enjoy the works themselves.

I did get a better experience in Honors English in college, but we mostly just discussed the Iliad, the Aeneid, and other ancient works, so I already was familiar with most of those through Latin class and had more vested interest to begin with. Plus, the class was much smaller and the professor was such a sweet man...it was better, but poetry is still tainted for me.

[tarotgal]

I know I got more out of class discussions in my 3000 and 4000 level English classes in college than I did in high school ones. I never participate in class discussions, though. But even in high school (all honors classes- I think I would have been driven mad in regular ones) every so often someone would say something and my mind would take off racing and thinking about it for hours afterwards.

To me, it's not so much the discussions as being forced into reading and thinking- two things I adore doing normally. It's like having a 'watching tv' class or a 'take a long nap' class. Having to read books was something I look forward to- especially when they're books I enjoyed that I wouldn't have run into normally.

As for symbolism- sometimes a forest is just a forest. But I subscribe to the theory that if I FEEL like the forest is more, then the story set in the forest hits me emotionally in a way that it might not have before. Not everything has symbolism, though, and I think a LOT of high school English teachers forget that as they're trying to teach their kids to look for deeper things within books. But I know I purposely use themes (especially light/dark) in my writings just to hint at more just below the surface. I don't expect anyone to pick up on some things. And I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to see the same thing from my stories- hopefully not even the things I think when I read them.
But I am very familiar with teachers who claim their analysis is the one you are to be tested on and that drives me up the wall. If there's one way to kill enjoyment of reading, that's it. Plain and simple. But even so, that's not going to stop me from thinking my own thoughts as I read, or seeing similarities between my life and the main character's, for example. But I do think my enjoyment of some works- like Hamlet for example- was heightened by lots of analysis. But as with all art, eveyone enjoys it in their own way. And for me, I can't read something without picking up on themes or making comparisons or seeing images that are really strong, etc. And I enjoyed English class because it gave me a time of day when it was all right to read and all right to think... even if I wasn't paying attention to what we were actually talking about. :-)

Just wanted to drop in a few bits from Oscar Wilde's preface of 'The Picture of Dorian Gray':
The artist is the creator of beautiful things. To reveal art and conceal the artist is art's aim. The critic is he who can translate into another manner or a new material his impression of beautiful things.

The highest as the lowest form of criticism is a mode of autobiography. Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming. This is a fault.

Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated. For these there is hope. They are the elect to whom beautiful things mean only beauty.

-snip-

Thought and language are to the artist instruments of an art. Vice and virtue are to the artist materials for an art. From the point of view of form, the type of all the arts is the art of the musician. From the point of view of feeling, the actor's craft is the type. All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril.

Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital. When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself. We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.

All art is quite useless.

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

Can you believe my english classes in high school actually were all honors classes? It was only in 1 year out of 4 in English class where we were actually forced to dig for symbolism. I quite enjoyed the rest of the years, but that one year really poisoned it for me and took away my desire to read a lot of the classics...

[tarotgal]

That's really so sad. And you'd think teachers would get the message by now that that sort of forced analysis does no one any good.

My boyfriend was actually put off reading altogether thanks to that sort of analysis. Which makes me lose a bit of respect for the guy, but there it is. He actually knows the last book he read in high school before he lost all interest in reading. And hasn't read a book since- with the exception of some textbooks and nonfiction.

It's just really sad when good books are ruined by bad teachers- or bad assignments for that matter. I know there are a few books/stories/poems I look back on with less fondness simply because of long papers I had to write on them or tests on them that were pointless annoyances.

And grrr! I would really think an honors English teacher would know better than an absurd analysis on the number 4 used throughout a book... I like to think some teachers have a lot of respect for their students... but it's very depressing when that's far from the case. And it's sad when that kind of thing makes a lasting impression- I can't think of Differential Equations without convulsing at the memory of my absolutely dreadful professor for that class(on evaluation day he actually cursed in front of us and challenged us to write terrible reviews of him because either way he didn't care what we thought of his class or him because his job was just to teach and not to help us actually learn).

[(Anonymous)]

Gah, I really just wanted to drop a note saying your use of 'orgasmical' made me smile, as you are the first I've heard to use that term in that way besides me, but...

I've been lucky enough to have many wonderful, a few good, a couple decent, and only one truly bad english teacher - and still luckier that I am able to block out much of the memories not conducive to enjoying the literature.

I agree that over-analysis can spoil the meaning of any work of art - most commonly with poetry - but in many cases, when performed correctly, does much to further one's understanding of the piece. Particularly in a group setting, with a moderator there solely to validate or disprove the far-fetched notions of some - those which cause many a heated argument - open discussion and analysis is very beneficial.

Some novels BEG to be analysed and picked apart - and are all the better for it. Such as Great Expectations: amazing book, but to SEE the symbolizm makes it all the better. Others, despite their authors' wishes, become the subject of intense scrutiny and debate as readers find meanings and motifs that the writer simply did not notice as his pen flew across the paper. Samuel Taylor Colleridge, for example. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner - there are some well arguable Christian themes, but throughout his life, Colleridge argued adamently that the Mariner's tale had NOTHING to do with any religion of any sort.

It's sort of like playing a piece on the piano; I know what the composer wanted, I understand the piano and fuerte, as well as retard, but do I always play to his specifications? Not at all. Once it's out of the writer's hands, the works' fate and interpretation is up to the masses.

Analysis is a wonderful, freeing tool - when not used for evil. If you have strong feelings about a book, find a buddy and let loose - analysis comes easily that way. You'll find yourself finding the symbols which you feel DO exist, and not be bogged down by assignments and papers.

***

Oscar Wilde, though some of his quotes are of a rather skewed variety (and that's what I love about him) this one what on target. I remember reading that in the preface my my DG novel and falling in love with the man immediately for his candid and smart remarks...

There's a poem I remember, from my junior year in highschool, which, when a group of us usurped the teaching role (liberal teacher, weird, but accomodating of many of our expressional needs) we used as a poem to be analysed actually had NO intended meaning behind it. The author did it as a satirical, fly in the face of conventional poetry, type thing - and I'm sure he was rolling with laughter in his grave as we tried to find a deeper meaning to something in which the forest truly did mean a forest and the bird was just a bird...Grrr, now I must find that poet/poem, else I will be driven mad...

-circe

[(Anonymous)]

fuerte? !Dios mio, espanol! Lo siento, no se donde esta mi cabeza ahora mismo.

And I'm pretty sure that, even ignoring the non-existant accents, the synatax is completely off.

Not fuerte, forte. Ahhh...

[tarotgal]

heehee glad I could amuse :-)

I've been lucky enough to have many wonderful, a few good, a couple decent, and only one truly bad english teacher - and still luckier that I am able to block out much of the memories not conducive to enjoying the literature.
That is GOOD to hear! I generally had good experiences in classes... though discussion wasn't always as stimulating as I would have liked until far into my college years. But generally, good teachers. A few bad assignments that will always haunt me, but I don't hold the books at fault for that, certainly.

I agree that over-analysis can spoil the meaning of any work of art - most commonly with poetry - but in many cases, when performed correctly, does much to further one's understanding of the piece.
True... and what you say about groups with moderators to keep people on track is a very good point. I think poetry especially gets the over-analysis more than anything else. Especially poems that are supposed to evoke emotions with specific imagery and references but vague explanation. The enjoyment of poetry in the search for one meaning, then another 5 billion hidden meanings always hurts me. I like to experience it... and understand what I understand after a few readings... but not kill it

Some novels BEG to be analysed and picked apart - and are all the better for it. Such as Great Expectations: amazing book, but to SEE the symbolizm makes it all the better.
You know, I wouldn't have put Great Expectations in that category upon first reading. I liked it well enough, but my teacher said the phrase "soap opera of their time" SO many times while we read it that I couldn't see it for much more than that until my second and third reading of it. Though I always had a huge crush on the blacksmith *G* And Pip and his roommate... but that's neither here nor there. But yes, there is so much meaning and symbolism that hits VERY hard if you take the time to look and understand it. Brings it to a whole new level.

Others, despite their authors' wishes, become the subject of intense scrutiny and debate as readers find meanings and motifs that the writer simply did not notice as his pen flew across the paper.
Exactly!!! And I like the example you gave. I could name a hundred others :-) Like The Chronicles of Narnia which I adore (which of course were meant to have religious symbolism... but CS Lewis himself said they weren't supposed to be a straight-out allegory and shouldn't be read as such) Or Winnie the Pooh. I cannot stand when people try to make those stories into ones with polotical parallels... they were children's stories- with lessons, yes, and lots of fun and understanding but not a call to arms for a political movement. *sigh*

It's sort of like playing a piece on the piano
I loved this whole analogy of yours :-) You said it perfectly :-)

Analysis is a wonderful, freeing tool - when not used for evil.
I love this! Sounds like a quote! I can seeit printed in the preface of English text books in years to come! LOL

Oscar Wilde, though some of his quotes are of a rather skewed variety (and that's what I love about him) this one what on target. I remember reading that in the preface my my DG novel and falling in love with the man immediately for his candid and smart remarks...
heehee I agree completely. I love when authors are so frank about their art. I love looking into their minds and seeing things from their point of view, not just from their work. Makes me appreciate their work and the world in different ways.

And the poem... can't say I understand Spanish, but from the rough translation of it, I see what you mean :-)
My favorite has always been trying to listen to people analyze William Carlos Williams's poem(and believe me, I've read 5 page essays about this poem that make my head spin):
"So much depends upon a red wheelbarrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens."

[(Anonymous)]

Can't say I understand Spanish, but from the rough translation of it, I see what you mean :-)

LoL :D Tehe. That wasn't really a poem - just lil' ol' me with spanish on the brain, when I'm trying to write piano terms. Fuerte is strong in spanish, forte (the signal for a piece to get louder) is strong, I think, in Italian - I mixed up the words in my little comparison. Ugh, foreign languages and I do NOT mix well at the wee hours of the morning. :)

Side note: I WILL find that poem.

hehe