Stupid Elf question :-)

[tarotgal]

Okay... I've a elf-related question that is kind of stupid and as I've found conflicting info online, I thought I'd see if anyone here might be more helpful.

When using 'elf' as a modifier, when should I use elf or elven?
In the movie and sometimes in the book elf is frequently used as an adjective (as in "what do your elf eyes see?") but elven used all over the place as well ('look at my pretty elven cloak'). And then there's elvish to throw in there as well. So what's the diff? For example, which would br appropriate for a phrase like 'that was the _____ equivalent of a smile'.

Yeah, I'm stupid. Thanks!! :-)

Comments

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's actually a concrete answer to this one. Movie-verse uses 3 terms, I think. There's the 'What do your ELF eyes see?' line, then there's 'Real ELVISH Rope' comment, both from TTT. And actually, Legolas says 'Lembas. ELVISH waybread.' (Had to pop in the FOTR:EE to see which one he used, then gave a happy melty sigh when I saw Legolas help Gimli into the boat *G*). Then Galadriel says 'And for you, Samwise Gamgee, ELVEN rope, made of hithlain.' And then Sam's 'I don't think even our ELVISH cloaks could hide us in there' line by the Black Gates in TTT. So I think Peter Jackson likes 'Elvish', but the other ones aren't ruled out.

Personally, I like 'Elven', and I tend to think of it as more book-canon.
For example:

-The ballad starting with 'Gil-Galad was an Elven-king.'
-from the Lay about Luthien that Aragorn sings: 'Tinuviel the elven-fair, Immortal maiden elven-wise...'
-From FOTR, The Ring Goes South: 'Gandalf bore his staff, but girt at his side was the elven-sword Glamdring...'
-From FOTR, Lothlorien, the song Legolas sings about Nimrodel: 'An Elven-maid there was of old...'
-And of course, Thranduil is the Elven-king of Mirkwood in the Hobbit, and they call his palace the 'Elven-king's halls' at the Council of Elrond.

HOWEVER, the book uses plain 'Elf' too:

-In FOTR, Glorfindel is called an 'Elf-Lord', and that term is used many times througout the book. (Though just a few lines later, he's called one of the 'Elven-folk'.)
-The terms 'Elf-kindred', 'Elf-magic', 'Elf-wardens', and 'Elf-friend' are in the books.

AND, the book uses 'Elvish' too:

-"Alas! Alas! cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress." (From FOTR, The Council of Elrond)
-From FOTR, Journey in the Dark: 'There was a hideous yell and the leaping shape thudded to the ground; the elvish arrow had pierced its throat.'
-From FOTR, Lothlorien: 'and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see.'
-From FOTR, The Mirror of Galadriel: (Boromir) "I do not feel too sure of this Elvish Lady and her purposes." (and Sam) "And I reckon there's Elves and Elves. They're all elvish enough, but they're not all the same."
-From FOTR, Farewell to Lorien": (elf, to Pippin) "They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean."

And yet later in the very same chapter the cloaks are called 'elven-cloaks'. So basically, I think 'Elf' is more of a title, and the other two,'Elven' and 'Elvish', are modifiers, at least from what I gather from book-FOTR. I can certainly search the other two books if you like. Hope that helps!

[tarotgal]

You are a saint. And a saint with marvelous timing, at that! :-) I *JUST* got online to see if anyone had said anything and, alas, nothing. I was about to sign off and then this glorious and helpful explanation came. Thank you!! :-) I did skim TTT about an hour ago after writing the post and only got more confused trying to put together a solid rule system for when to use each. My head hurt. LOL

But this is a very informative and, frankly, comforting explanation :-) I was a little worried people would read whatever I picked for various situations and sit there laughing at my stupidity. I know, many stories into the fandom should have given me more confidence but I definitely still feel like a newbie in the LotR fandom world and this issue has come up three times in my fics in the last few days (I just finished a very short L/G non-sneezing PWP ficlet a few minutes ago) and I got sick of guessing and worrying people were laughing at me using it wrong. So thank you. This is exactly what I needed to know to help me feel less confused (or at least feel that my confusion was justified, rather)

Thank you!!!

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

Update: Just checked the first couple chapters of TTT. I found a half-dozen uses of 'elven-cloak' and 'elven-boat' very quickly. I'm finding that almost all of the uses of 'elven' are followed by that hypen and then the word it is modifying.

'Elvish' seems to be used on its own. A line from 'The Riders of Rohan' says "few but elvish eyes would have marked them, until they were close at hand." And this line about Legolas 'resting his mind in the strange path of elvish dreams'.

Very fascinating topic...